Jessica Garfield-Kabbara (english)

Timp de lectură: 60 minute


29th of October 2016
Adrian: Jessica, Hello and welcome! Thank you for accepting my invitation to have a discussion about our common love: Astrology!
Jessica: You’re so welcome Adrian. It’s such an honor and a pleasure to be here with you.
Adrian: Some say Astrology is a calendar and a body of observations about life and the Universe. Some see it as a formidable tool for character delineation, while others understand Astrology as just a divination method for predicting life events. What does it mean for you?
Jessica: I love that question. I think Astrology is all of the things that you mentioned, because Astrology is a living symbol that depicts the Universe, the Cosmos. I find that Astrology is both a tool, a map, a form of divination, a way of understanding our character, a way of understanding our soul and our karma. But, more than anything it shows us the Universe’s most deep and profound love; it allows us to see the most inner depths of our beings, individually and collectively in the movement of the planetary bodies.

I feel that Astrology is here for us to participate with. I think that it is a calling from the Universe for us to wake up and engage in our lives in the most full and embodied ways that we possibly can. Astrology invites us to become more self-reflective, to look at both the gifts and the challenges that each one of us carries in our beings, from the light to the shadow and in doing so in that deeper understanding of self-knowledge and self-awareness, it allows us to grow and evolve as souls, to self-actualize and more than anything, to experience the forms of connection in love with our self, with one another and with the Universe.
Adrian: Marvelous, that’s both precise and poetic! Jessica, what kind of astrologer are you and what exactly is an astrological reading?
Jessica: There are so many different kinds of astrologers, just like there are so many different kinds of doctors or teachers. The type of astrologer that I am comes from a tradition of Archetypal Astrology from Richard Tarnas, here in San Francisco, California, and the type of Astrology that I practice is counselling Astrology. That means I use Astrology as a therapeutic lens and process for people to engage with themselves in their lives. What I do with astrological readings is, I hold space for the person for somewhere between 90 minutes and 2 hours and describe to them what I see, based upon the position of the planets at the moment and the place of their birth. And by focusing mainly on the planets and their geometrical or angular relationships to one another, the aspects, I can understand not only their personality but also their family dynamics. How they show up in love, their work or vocational calling, I can see their psychology, I can see how they tend to experience their inner world, their emotional life and their feelings…
So an astrological reading is essentially a cosmic mirroring or reflection of yourself based upon the time and place you were born and the counseling astrologer’s role in this sense is, as ethically as possible, to hold the space for the other person to get in deeper touch with themselves.
Adrian: You’re also a Depth Psychotherapist. What exactly does this mean?
Jessica: That’s a great question that I would like to figure out myself… Well, I am in the process of getting licensed here in the state of California as a marriage family therapist. You go to graduate school for two and a half years, write a master’s thesis, get training to work with individuals and couples and in that process, after you graduate and write your master’s thesis, you do 3000 hours of training in an office under supervision of another licensed psychotherapist.
Right now I’m near the end of that process, and what I do is that on a weekly basis I meet with individuals and couples who want to understand themselves and their lives better. Often the reason that someone comes in is to lessen their suffering, to bring about healing. That healing comes through not only from awareness but also a feeling and movement through what’s happening in their lives, in the presence of another person, me, the psychotherapist who is essentially a space holder, a witness – and a reparative loving relationship with that person through contact with me. They can began to love themselves more fully and have a healthy relationship that they can then take out into the rest of their lives.
The part about it being in ‘depth’ is that the work goes deep into dream work, into astrological work, into fantasy, into the depth of the relationship between me and the person in the room. So, it’s beyond just cognitive-behavioral therapy where we’re trying to rewire the mind or beyond just trying to understand some surface interpretation of one’s life. We are actually doing deeper transformative, and I believe alchemical work in the space that we hold together and co-create as therapist and patient.
Adrian: Do you combine psychotherapy with Astrology?
Jessica: I do. I happen to combine archetypal Astrology and depth psychotherapy. Most of my clients, actually all of them right now in my practice, not only know that I’m an astrologer but have also sought me out because I also can bring in the gifts and the insight and the wisdom of the archetypal realm into the work that we’re doing, the really deep emotional work that we’re doing in psychotherapy together.
So the Astrology helps kind of bring a bit of a map, because psychotherapy often can be not only very deep and powerful but oftentimes messy. The astrological perspective gives a sense of not only timing of events and periods in their life and the archetypal energies they’re working with, but it also helps us better understand the person’s relationship with me through looking at our synastry together and looking at what is it that we are specifically working out as well as our dynamic through the astrological lens.
Adrian: We all hear about determinism and free will… many people are just confused about these two antagonistic concepts: it seems if there is determinism there is no free will and vice versa, right?
Jessica: I have to disagree with that. I think determinism and free will co-exist. I believe that paradox is absolutely inherent and innate to the fabric of the Cosmos itself, and I understand paradox to be two seemingly contradictory perspectives, simultaneously being true and in that, for me implies that there’s a deeper unity and a Cosmos that is able to hold out that level of complexity, that level of paradox, of seemingly endless contradictions. So I think that depending on what level you’re operating at, the context of the moment, what slice of the Universe you’re looking into, determinism and free will both seem to exist. I’ll give a very quick scientific analogy, which would be Newtonian physics and Einsteinian Mathematics: both operate; it just depends on the what you’re using it for and at what level you’re looking at. I think the same is true for determinism and free will.
Adrian: And Astrology seems to operate in the space between these two concepts…
Jessica: I think so! I think that we have to broaden and bring more nuance to our understanding of determinism and free will. I believe that there is a karmic destiny or blueprint that we all incarnate with, and I think that when we come into space-time there is some deeper or higher self that is cooperating with wise beings and elders that help us decide what life to live, what parents to be born to, what country to be born into, the circumstances of our life, and in that way there is something determined there and we can’t escape from that. I can’t escape being a woman, I can’t escape being American, I can’t escape coming from parents who divorced. That is an inherent part of my biographical history and the karma that I’ve inherited, that transcends my soul. I was born into a collective field of karma that is carrying all of the experiences of all women who have ever lived, I was born into a collective field of karma of patriarchy. I was born into the collective field of karma of America and our great shadow of genocide and slavery but also our great championing of creative self-expression and freedom. All of those things I carry in me that is beyond my own individual karma as my soul; there is a certain determinism in that, there is something that is fated about that.
Yet at the same time, because I’m given self-reflexive consciousness, because I have awareness, I have been given a certain level of free will, a certain spaciousness in my life through awareness, to make choices. In that process, I co-create with not only the archetypes in my birth chart but the context of the historical cultural time period that I was born into. I can’t change that I was born into patriarchy, but I can wake up inside of patriarchy and use my will and my agency to shift and make changes, and I think that is an act of free will.
Adrian: Do you believe in God? From your point of view, is there any contradiction between Astrology and religious faith and spiritual practices?
Jessica: Most definitely not. I think that Astrology is the most inclusive worldview that I’ve ever encountered. I think that it absolutely acknowledges and affirms God and all of the major world religions and also all spiritual traditions and practices. I don’t think there’s anything about Astrology that contradicts those perspectives as far as them being paths of devotion, paths of a connection to God. Also in taking the word religion back into its root meaning ‘to bind back‘, this is what Astrology does as well: it binds us back to an enchanted, meaningful, highly creative and intelligent Cosmos. And, I think at the heart of the world’s religions and spiritual practices that is also what is taking place.
Adrian: There are so many perspectives and branches in Astrology. And one of the most confusing aspects is that they all seem to have results. How is this possible?
Jessica: It is something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. I think that part of what’s going on there is because the Universe is so deeply participatory, that whatever framework, whatever worldview, whatever method you bring to the Cosmos, it will be in a relationship with you. The Universe will meet you wherever you’re at, whatever perspective you bring in, it will enter into a dialogue with you because I think the Universe itself desires connection, dialogue, a relationship with all of its creation. Part of the beauty and the grace of the Universe is that it has a million different languages in which to communicate and commune with its creation, and just like the birds sing their songs and the frogs make their crooks and the cows low, those are all different languages that the Divine is in, with those creatures and for the human being, who is coming to a place of developing thousands of different dialects and thousands of different ways to make music and to paint and to create art and beauty.
The same is true for the astrological tradition. There’s a thousand different ways to enter into that dialogue. Whether that’s Vedic or Western, whether that’s more predictive, focusing on the signs or the houses or doing what we do in Archetypal Astrology, I think that it’s part of the act of love from God or from the Universe to allow us to have as many languages as we can come up with.
Adrian: What is the most common objection you have encountered towards Astrology? And how would you reply to it?
Jessica: Hmm… (pause, then laughs) It’s really interesting. For some reason I’ve gotten to the point where I hadn’t been engaged in dialogue around deep objection these days. Early on in my practice (I’ve been practicing for 9 years now, since 2007), I would get into a lot of debates with scientists, and most of them would be arguing that the physical property of the planets couldn’t be having an impact or an influence on us as far as we are from them in the solar system and thus Astrology can’t be real, because there’s no material causation like gravity influencing what’s going on here on Earth. That’s a very materialistic reductionist perspective to take, but honestly, I haven’t been having those conversations for such a long time and I think that for me, whenever someone does have resistance, I try to do my best to respect it, instead of trying to argue against them. I understand where they’re coming from, enter into their worldview, into their set of beliefs and then use their own language, their own philosophy and their own psychology to talk to them. Because everybody’s world view, no matter what they say, has meaning and purpose and even if they’re using a mechanistic machine to use that metaphoric analogy, to describe the Cosmos, if you sit with a person long enough, you hear meaning and purpose come out somewhere in their life. I think that’s the best way to enter into a meaningful conversation with someone, because there’s no point in me trying to convince everybody that Astrology works; instead, I would rather use the deeper implications of Astrology, that we’re all interconnected and there is meaning and purpose here and foster that kind of emotional tone with another human being. So maybe the next time they think about Astrology, they might remember how they felt and our dialogue and feel a little bit more receptive and open. I prefer to do this instead of trying to intellectually convince them of something that really, actually is not totally my job to do. That’s more between them and the Universe. But I can do my best to provide a present, caring connection in that moment with them.
Adrian: As you rightly noticed, the difficulty our culture has in accepting Astrology is, at least in part, due to the perceived lack of a clear mechanism of action. What do you think? How does Astrology work? Does it work through some subtle, invisible rays or energy fields that will eventually be discovered by science at some point in time?
Jessica: (laughs) Maybe, I really don’t know; it’s a mystery. I often think about how we can only see a very narrow part of the visible spectrum, and there’s a lot that we literally can’t detect. I think about the Universe being 96 percent empty space and about the cell and the atom being 99 percent empty space. I think wow, there’s a lot that we can’t see with our visual sight. For me, there are more ways of knowing then science and measurement and visual sight. A lot of that is actually a depth of intuition, a depth of imagination and a depth of entering into expanded or non-ordinary states of consciousness, where the deepest mysteries of the Cosmos began to be revealed to us.
So, do I think we’ll ever detect some kind of ray? Maybe, I don’t need that though. I don’t need to know what the mechanism is, because I see that it works. Just like I wouldn’t want someone to look at me and take my measurements of how much I weigh, and the height I am, what’s happening in my blood counts, to tell me who I am, I don’t want to do that to the Universe. Metaphor, story, symbolism, mythology, these are the ways that the Cosmos speaks to us of her deepest interiority, and I respect that. I don’t personally find the need to dissect and measure that, to believe that what’s happening is real.
Adrian: That being said, let’s give our listeners and readers a clear idea of what Archetypal Astrology is. For this I propose, first of all, to have a discussion about the archetypes in general. What is an archetype?
Jessica: Well, Archetypal Astrology, as I mentioned before, comes out of the lineage of Richard Tarnas, who comes out of the lineage of Stanislav Grof, and they come out of the lineage of James Hillman, Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud and all the way back into Ancient Greece, Plato, Aristotle. In that lineage and in that tradition, Richard Tarnas wrote The Passion of the Western Mind, and he essentially took that book to show the evolution of Western human consciousness. In that process, it turns out that what is evolving in that historical narrative is the evolution of the archetypes or at least our understanding of the evolution of archetypes.
Richard Tarnas always begins by saying archetype has two root words, “arche” meaning original and “type“, form, so it’s the original type or form of the Universe. It’s primordial, it’s ancient, it’s a priori, it exists before space-time and it’s one of the most difficult things to describe because of the nature of it. An archetype is something that is not only living and evolving through space and through time, but it’s also something that we cannot ever fully capture with our words or with our concepts or ideas of it.
But to give you an example, an archetype in of itself, the nature of it, the ontology of it, is that it itself permeates and impels and informs and shapes the entire Cosmos. In that process, we see that it is multi-dimensional, we see that archetypes manifest on every level of existence from the physical world to the psychological realm, spiritual realm, emotional realm, and so on. We also see that archetypes manifest themselves interiorly and exteriorly. They’re both transcendent and immanent, both transpersonal and personal; there’s nothing left untouched by an archetype. In some sense, one thing or another, in of itself is an archetype. There’s nothing that isn’t an archetype. Rick talks about this a lot and also James Hillman talks about this a lot, in Re-visioning psychology.
On a more kind of practical level, that’s less philosophical or metaphysical in its take, an archetype is the underlying patterns of the Cosmos. It’s the way the Universe keeps track of itself; it’s the unconscious and conscious processes that give the temporal structures for these vast and eternal energies to be able to be discerned in their myriad of forms. I mean, essentially, what we are talking about here is God. We’re talking about the Universe, about the Great Mother Goddess. The archetypes are the way that we begin to discern the many different inflections of her vibrational frequencies, and these vibrational frequencies have a certain pattern to them, a certain tone, a certain resonance.
So, we have the archetype of Mars, and its resonance shows up in fire, it shows up as the warrior, it shows up as coming through with a certain vigor, it shows up as passion. That’s a vibrational frequency that permeates and informs the entire Cosmos. We begin to be able to recognize it in any athlete or we begin to be able to recognize in strength or in a person who has a lot of courage or in someone who’s very driven and passionate. We start to see the archetype manifest in human beings. We see it in the animal kingdom, when two animals get into a fight or a conflict or if there’s a heightened sense of aggression or testosterone. Of course, we see it in athleticism, in sports, in football… and this goes on and on.
Adrian: Your words reminded me those of Paracelsus who said: “What is Venus but the Artemisia that grows in your garden? And what is iron but the planet Mars? Venus and the Artemisia are both of the same essence, while Mars and iron are manifestations of the same cause.”
Jessica: That’s beautiful. I love that! Yes!
Adrian: There are so many ways of understanding the archetypes: Homeric, Platonic, Kantian, Darwinian, Freudian, Jungian and so on. Are these one and the same thing?
Jessica: Yes, and no. I think that they’re all different valences of understanding what you just described. What we’re looking at, is a certain essence. It’s certain, again, archetypal energy, vibrational frequency, and we can begin to understand it through the concept of a Freudian lens, of a Jungian lens, Grofian perinatal lens, a metaphysical lens, a mythological lens. They’re all just different lenses to enter into this deepening of knowing of the Universe itself.
So, in a way, yes! They are all doing the same thing but depending on what lens you bring to it, you’re going to be revealed a different qualitative aspect of the archetype. So depending on the epistemological frame of knowing that you bring to engaging the object at hand, then the way that the other is going to reveal itself to you only depends on the frame that you’re bringing to it. So, in a way, no, it’s not all the same thing.
Adrian: Two of the most famous archetypes are the Shadow and the Anima. What are these exactly?
Jessica: Well, Carl Jung wrote about the Shadow, saying that essentially the Shadow is the aspects of oneself that we have disavowed, that we have rejected, that we have relegated to the unconscious or to the Underworld. There are parts of ourselves that are difficult for us to honor and acknowledge and accept that are a part of us. So, for example, it’s very common for human beings to put, to have in their shadow place, things that they’re shameful around, things that make them feel like they’re a bad person, and that’s different for everybody. Let’s say violence, right? Violence is something that is a part of every human being. We all have the archetype of Mars living inside of us. We all have the archetype of Pluto living inside of us and out in the world. So, if somewhere along the way you did something that was violent, and you didn’t want to be that way anymore, because you were reprimanded for it, or you just felt scared of yourself or you thought that it was not something you wanted to do, that gets placed into the Shadow and becomes something that is not identified as a part of yourself. Therefore it starts to become hidden, dark and unconscious, and so literally there is something about the shadow that is very difficult for us, as human beings to see, because we have made it so othered in our own being.
Whereas the Anima in what Jung describes, he kind of goes about it in two different ways: on the one hand the Anima is the female or feminine counterpoint in the male psyche and also the female or feminine aspect of every woman. Then he goes on and says Anima is actually something even beyond that, as for you, your website being called the Anima Mundi, the Soul of the World, Anima is soul, Anima is psyche. That just doesn’t belong to the interiority of a human being, but actually the world itself, the Cosmos itself has a soul and that is Anima, which is thec animate force of the Cosmos that carries a depth of interiority that usually is discovered through things like art, music, mythology. So this is a very rough overview of Anima and Shadow.
Adrian: Richard Tarnas described seven main characteristics of the archetypes: Multidimensional, Multivalent, Indeterminate, Contextual, Participatory, Creative and Dynamic. This looks quite complicated; would you mind to bringing some light here?
Jessica: (laughs) Sure, yeah, Rick has an amazing mind, and he is at the core of his being a philosopher and cultural historian, very erudite in his capacities. So, when he breaks things down, there’s a simultaneous elegance and simplicity, and yet you’re having to go over to your dictionary and look up all these words and figure out what they mean. I’ll do my best to describe it. For me, what we’re talking about is the nature of archetypes, the ontological qualities of these underlying patterns of the Cosmos.
And so multi-dimensional just simply means the archetypes come through on every dimension of being: the physical realm, the material realm of space-time, the emotional realm, the psychological, the spiritual, the interpersonal, the intrapersonal. They come through on every possible dimension of being.
Then he talks about the multivalent, and these are the two core principles of the archetypes for Rick: it’s multi-dimensional, multivalent. Multivalent means a wide spectrum of possible manifestation or expression of these energies from light to shadow, from noble to ignoble, from life enhancing to life destroying, that there’s a wide range in which they can come through in their expressions. So the life enhancing side of Mars is passion, is the divine spark of inspiration that motivates us to go out into the world and to create something. The shadow side or the life destroying side of it is violence and aggression, conflicts and going to war. So, every archetype has this range of potential multivalent expression from light to shadow, and thy are often in a very dynamic interplay where we can’t actually say: this is just light and this is just shadow. Just like the human being presents a persona to the world, a face to the outer world and then we have our shadow that is turned inward, the archetype also has this; it has a face that it puts out, and we tend to think of that as the noble, beneficent, benevolent side. Then it has a shadow side, it’s turned away. We tend to think of that as more challenging and difficult.
The third main component is that the archetypes are participatory, and the reason why we know that they’re participatory, is because in of themselves they are highly creative and dynamic, meaning the archetypes are constantly coming through a novel expression. So, although that they’re primordial, they’re ancient, they’re a priori to space-time, they are constantly being expressed in new ways, through our participation with them. When Mozart creates a beautiful piece of music, of course that is the archetype of Venus coming through his music, which is primordial, but the newness, the novelty of it, is what Mozart did with those incredible, incredible pieces of art. So, the archetypes are in themselves creative and dynamic, they’re constantly evolving and changing as human beings and as consciousness continues to evolve and to change, new dimensions of existence are revealed as the human being itself evolves, in that co-creative enactment between the human being and the Cosmos. Of course this isn’t just restricted to the human dimension of existence. This is most likely happening in the plant world, in the animal world and in the ocean, in the Cosmos itself; it’s happening everywhere! So the archetypes themselves are participatory, and the more we engage them, the more they would become alive;c to the extent that we participate in our lives, the more that they are able to come through.
This is where I think that the role of the human being is to form a connunctio or a sacred marriage between the soul that transcends space and time, and with the archetypal configurations of the birth chart, the living symbol of the soul participating in space time, this lifetime itself. And I believe that is what, more than anything, Astrology is pointing to: that it’s actually the marriage through participation of the soul and the archetypal dynamics that bring forth novel expressions into the world. This is happening again and again in every incarnation.
Adrian: What about the fourth one?
Jessica: Yeah, so then we get back into looking at the quality of the archetypes which is that they’re dynamic, and this essentially means that they are always in motion; they’re always evolving. They’re not static principles that we can ever say, this is exactly what Mercury is. So, for example, before we had human language, right? We were primates, making sounds. Mercury is the archetype of the mind. It’s the archetype of language, is the archetype of communication. Well, communication has always been happening; there have always been forms of correspondence between any two things, but before there is language, there is sound, and before there is sound, there is rhythm and before there’s rhythm, there’s photosynthesis. So, there’s always exchange of information. There’s always a dialogue happening, but the way that that dialogue is happening is constantly evolving. We can look back through the evolution of the Earth and see, okay, we were single celled organisms. Then we began to die, and the moment we died, was when sex entered the evolutionary scene here on Earth, and in that moment, a new language was born, of sex and death, and then we see photosynthesis and then we see rhythm, and then we see, the heart beat in that rhythm and then we see sound, and we see noise, and then we see language, and then we see story telling, and then we see the written word, and now we have the internet… So, the archetypes are dynamic, they’re evolving; they’re constantly changing.
Then the fifth principle in that is they are creative. They’re highly creative in every way that I’ve been describing. Then the sixth principle, they’re indeterminate. This indeterminacy is shown in the very fact that they’re both evolving, they’re dynamic, right? But also they’re participatory. So, we can’t ever say, well, because you have Mars-Pluto in your natal chart, then that means you are going to have enacted murderous, violent, hatred towards another human being. No, the archetypes are indeterminate: yes, that is one potential expression, but it also can just be the warrior on behalf of transformation and evolution. It could be the warrior on behalf of nature. It could be a biological scientist who fights to bring bio mimicry into the projects that he or she is doing at work…
The archetypes are indeterminate. We can’t pin down exactly how they’re going to come through. We know that there is this range of expression, but we’ll never know exactly how they’ll come through, until they do, and this is where Rick compares it to physics. What we discover now in quantum physics is that everything is a particle and a wave simultaneously. And it’s the moment that it comes into embodiment, when it decides whether or not it’s going to be a particle or it’s going to be a wave. But until that moment, it is the absolute open potential that it could be either, and the same is true of the archetypes: they’re indeterminate. They’re full of potential, and it’s until the moment that we enact them that it then comes through and how exactly they’re going to be expressed.
Adrian: And the contextual character of the archetypes?
Jessica: The contextual side is probably my favorite side as far as being a psychotherapist and a counseling astrologer. And the reason why, is, for me, context is everything. So, an example of context is when you look at the historical cultural time. Look at someone who is born right now, versus someone who was born five hundred years ago. The archetypes are going to manifest and express differently through those people’s lives, because we’re in a different set of circumstances. Now we have the internet and modern medicine. Now we have a global planetary civilization, that’s able to communicate with itself. Five hundred years ago, a thousand years ago, we didn’t have a lot of those things. We didn’t have the internet nor fast forms of communication, and we didn’t have modern medicine. So, our lives and what could be possible was very different: that’s context.
But then if you want to bring anything else into the personal realm, which is what I love, there’s what Rick Tarnas calls co-determining factors. So, a woman born with Sun-Pluto is going to express it very differently than a man born with Sun-Pluto: a lot of that has to do with gender norms that come out of our culture and our society. Oftentimes, men are actually encouraged to be Sun-Pluto, to be powerful, to use their power, to really make an influence, to be intense, to be strong. But, women, and this is beginning to change, when seen as powerful, are often called threatening, bossy, domineering, aggressive. So, women are often shamed for their power, or their power is to be used in service of men or in service of the family, or in service of home, right? And so, women are told to use their power in very specific certain ways, and in a different way men are told to use their power at work, to achieve, to conquer, and women are told to use that power to support the home, to support the environment they’re in. They’re on more of an emotional level. So, oftentimes you see women born with Sun-Pluto very repressed around their identity and sense of self, because there’s a tremendous amount of shame and lack of encouragement, for them to be empowered, strong individuals. On the other hand, men who have Sun-Pluto can still carry a lot of shame, but in a different way, and they tend to be more visibly dominant then women.
So, depending on what your gender is, the archetypes are going to come through differently, but also depending on the socioeconomic status, and depending on where on earth you’re born. If you’re born in Syria right now, you have Sun-Uranus and you’re revolutionary, you might be wearing that white helmet. You might be going and finding highly rebellious and innovative ways to bring about real change to the atrocities that are happening there. Whereas if you’re born with Sun-Uranus, let’s say, in America, you can end up being Donald Trump who considers himself a trickster maverick and is an embarrassment, because there’s not the same checks and balances here, that there are in other places for people taking on that level of energy, which can equally come through as being the rebel; that’s revolutionary. In what Donald Trump is doing, he is both rebellious and revolutionary, whether we agree with it or not. He’s bringing change to what is happening here in American political dynamics as embarrassing and horrifying as it is for me as a woman living here.
So you see, where you’re born has a lot to do with it. But then, if you get even more specific into it, it’s like birth order, the first child versus the middle child, versus the youngest child are psychologically set up differently in the family system. So, your birth order has a lot to do with how you express your birth chart. The eldest child is usually, not always, but usually is the leader, the one that has to kind of grow up quicker than the other ones, to take care of the other ones. So they foster a sense of not only leadership, but sometimes rigidity or a need to accomplish for the parents projecting into the child, that they need them to be successful and to achieve a lot. The middle child often tends to be the peacemaker, the mediator, and the youngest child usually is the one that is more rebellious, sometimes more dysfunctional. Because they can’t be the oldest, and they can’t be the mediator. They’re the youngest and often kept young, because they’re treated like a baby and other people do things for them. Okay, all those people, if they had the exact same birth chart, are going to express it very differently based upon that birth order. So, there’re so many contextual factors that go in to the mosaic of a person’s life on how these archetypes are going to come through for them.
Adrian: In a public presentation Richard Tarnas underlined the fact this very complex influence is not univocal, just from the archetypes down to our world, but we can also influence the archetypes. This seems rather strange; can you comment on this assertion?
Jessica: Yes, I love Rick for saying this. The way that I see what you just mentioned, is that it’s a relationship. The human being is always at one end of a relationship with everything else in life, whether that’s with another person, an idea, a project, or the Cosmos itself. Like in any relationship, there is an exchange of energy, it’s a give and take. And like in any relationship, there’s a mutual influence that takes place. That is just the nature of a relationship, and it seems that as soon as the Cosmos came into creating space-time, the Cosmos was instantly in a relationship with itself, with its creation. We know that any relationship is a mutual influence. There’s reciprocity, an exchange of energy. So, the human being is influenced and informed by the archetypes, but the archetypes, through our participation and enactment, are also influenced and change and evolve.
As soon as the human being began to write down the written word and therefore, as soon as history was able to be told through story in the written form, then all of a sudden the archetype of Mercury is changed. It evolves through us, beginning to write. The archetypes themselves are influenced by the human being, because participation is an act of communion. And, it seems that as much as the human being delights in the experiences of God, God delights in the experience of the human being. Rick Tarnas says again and again and so does his colleague Brian Swimme, that the Universe knows itself and learns about itself through us. And, that part of what seems to happen in giving birth to human beings was the Universe coming in to a new way of seeing itself through our eyes and through the way that we engage in an act with creation.
Adrian: That’s fantastic!
Jessica: (Laughs) I’m glad you like it.
Adrian: These are the principles, but how about the real life? Using some particular cases, not just Donald Trump, can you explain how these archetypes combine? Maybe we could go through what is one, what is the other and how might their interaction manifest. You mentioned Mars several times. That’s why I suggest to honor Mars and discuss his combinations with the other archetypes.
Jessica: Great. So, let’s begin by remembering that at the root of the archetypes is the relationship. We live in a relational Cosmos. So, relationships can come through in a way that’s very healthy, meaning they’re balanced. There’s an equal exchange of energy, a mutuality, a give and take that feels reciprocal. That’s a healthy relationship; we all know them. When we have healthy relationships with people in our lives, we feel a sense of contentment, a sense of both being fully seen and honored for who we are, while fully seeing and honoring the other person for who they are. In all of our differences we come together and find points of connection that give birth to new worlds, new ideas, new perspectives, new ways of being: that’s a healthy relationship.
And then relationships can become toxic. And in toxic relationships there’s often domination of one person over the other or one perspective over the other. So, there’s a collapse. One becomes very strong, the other one becomes very weak and a power struggle begins to happen. In that power struggle, there are often forms of violence and abuse, whether that’s physical or sexual, or verbal, or emotional.
The archetypes can come through in these same ways: the way that human beings can have healthy and toxic relationships, so can the archetypes. So, when we go into looking at that, it’s important for us to remember that this is always the case.
Let’s start with Mars. Mars is the archetype of the warrior. It’s a more yang or masculine energy and it’s very assertive, direct, penetrating. But, at its core, at its root, it’s fire, is the element of fire, and fire is passion, fire is inspiration. And, fire is what motivates us to take action in the world, to take risks, to put ourselves out there. So, anytime we go to do something, we take action, there’s movement; that’s Mars.
Now, the shadow side of Mars, when it comes through in a toxic way, is war, violence, abuse, sexual abuse, particularly when you combine it with Pluto, which deepens and intensifies things and brings in the unconscious and brings in power. Mars can become frustrated, irritable; it’s the archetype of anger. Anger has wonderful intelligence in it. It shows us when our boundaries have been crossed, when our needs are not being met. When we’re angry, which is always a secondary emotion, what’s underneath all of that is sadness, hurt. So, Mars, even in its shadow side of coming through as anger, has a beautiful creative intelligence in it, that actually contains Light. It shows us where we need to take care of something so that we can feel safer. Or we can feel back in balance with whatever it is that we’re feeling angry about. So, when you begin to combine Mars with the other planetary archetypes, you come into this interplay, this dance between these archetypal energies. Two archetypal energies begin to permeate one another, they begin to penetrate one another, to inform one another. So, is there a particular one that you would like to start with first, Adrian?
Adrian: Since today there’s a square in the sky between Mars and Uranus, let’s start with Uranus, the liberator!
Jessica: Okay, so, Uranus is the archetype of the Trickster. And, it’s all about freedom, rebellion, change, radical unprecedented change. It’s the archetype of emancipation and liberation. And because it’s the archetype of the Trickster, there’s a suddenness to it, a quickness, it’s the lightning bolt going off. There’s a speediness to it. So, when you get Mars, the Warrior, the Fire, with Uranus, the lightning bolt, the speed, you get a really fast, dynamic embodied expression. And, if that’s coming through in a person, you often see it in someone who’s a warrior on behalf of freedom and revolution, the street fighting activist, who’s fearless and uses their courage to be on the front line and to fight the good fight, whatever that might be. There’s an impulsivity there. Mars is impulsive and Uranus is impulsive, and you get them together and you get this electric impulsivity. And Uranus also relates to intuition. Uranus is precognitive; it operates on such a fast level, that there’s something very intuitive about it. And, when you get the Mars-Uranus in a person together, they move quickly through a room. They can move quickly through a conversation in a very electric dynamic, kind of flaring forth way. There’s a certain bravado there, a boldness.
I think of Mars-Uranus as someone who is very, very bold and who loves to take risks. It’s the aspect of the gambler, the one who goes all in, without even knowing the outcome, just for the sake of novelty, just for the sake of a new experience. Uranus is all about having new experiences, and Mars activates, catalyzes whatever it touches. So Mars-Uranus is the activation of new experiences, new awareness, new possibilities, new worlds. It loves adventure. It can be a kind of aggression, playful, youthful energy, because Uranus is the youthful playful energy and Mars is that assertion. And so, you get someone who’s very trickery in their playful aggression. And, sometimes they can be quick to temper. Uranus is quick and Mars is one’s temper. So, there can often be a kind of quick anger, that comes out or a quick irritability or frustration, but easy come easy go, as quick as it comes in, as easily it goes out. Or it can be Uranus in the shadow form, the juvenile delinquent, the rebel without a cause, the one who is just causing disruption and chaos without a deeper intention. And, with Mars there, it can come through the kind of strong yang masculine energy. That can be really intrusive, really intense. It can be very kind of the unexpected anger that can be scary or the unexpected masculine aggressive energy that causes chaos and disruption.
Adrian: And when Mars partners with Saturn?
Jessica: In some ways, Saturn is the opposite of Uranus. Uranus is about the new and the future, very liberal and progressive. Saturn is tradition. It’s the past and much more conservative or reserved; it’s very much concerned with morality, ethics, law, order. It’s much more logical, grounded, and when you get Mars with Saturn, Saturn tempers the Mars. Oftentimes Saturn helps ground and matures the Mars, gives it a certain kind of patience and containment. So, the Mars isn’t kind of just exploding all over the place anymore, instead, now it’s playing the long game.
You see Mars-Saturn often in the long distance runner, the person who runs the marathon and sustains their energy, sustains their fire for a long period of time. We see the Mars-Saturn person in the carpenter, the construction worker, the person who works hard, laboriously, to build things, brick by brick, step by step. There’s a certain devotional act that’s taking place around one’s athleticism, and around one’s chi; again, it’s tempered. So, Mars-Saturn people tend to not show their anger very easily. They tend to be more reserved, more cautious around showing aggression and sometimes to a fault, where Saturn can negate the anger to the point where the person is actually oppressing it. They’re not really feeling it, and then they can get stuck. It can feel like they’re hitting their head against the wall, get really frustrated and irritable and then break through the sense of limit or the sense of obstacle that is there… So Saturn vcan negate whatever touches and blocks it, or it can contain it and help mature; it usually does the dance of both.
Adrian: He is the one who walks the walk…
Jessica: Exactly.
Adrian: What about the meeting between Mars and Neptune?
Jessica: Yeah, Neptune is the oceanic waters, the transcendent, and its tendency is to dissolve whatever it touches, to make it more permeable, make it more sensitive, bring a certain fluidity to it. It’s the dissolution of boundaries. Saturn has boundaries and Neptune is boundary-less. Saturn is limit, Neptune is limitless, Saturn is time, Neptune is timelessness. Neptune is the realm of the imagination, the realm of our dreams, of our aspirations. It’s the wellspring of myth, symbol and stories.
So, when you get Neptune with Mars, it can go from anything from the spiritual warrior, the warrior on behalf of the imagination, the warrior on behalf of inspiration and the divine. And, you can see it in someone like Michael Jordan. You would not think he has Mars-Neptune, because he was such an amazing, incredible athlete, but when you see Michael Jordan flying through the air, in a kind of Daoistic way, one with the ball, one with himself, one with the team, that’s the beauty of the Mars-Neptune. When the Neptune comes through as divine inspiration, it becomes the Dao, the Watercourse Way, and the Mars is able to align its will to go down the path of least resistance.

The shadow side is that Neptune can water down the Mars, so you get someone who is lethargic, who has low energy. Where the chi is dissolved to the point of depression, you also see it a lot in someone who struggles with addiction, because Neptune relates to escapism. And there can be a watering down of one’s assertion to the point that one starts to use substances, drugs, alcohol and uses the Mars energy to escape from this realm, instead of actualizing oneself in the realm of Saturn, of space-time.
The other thing that Neptune relates to, is projection. So, there can be a tendency, wherever Neptune is in our chart, to project that part of us out into the world. So there can be this projection of anger, where the person isn’t able to feel their own anger but projects it out onto other people. Other people can get angry with that person or the person doesn’t realize that they’re angry. They don’t even realize they’re in a fight, they’re in conflict with the other person but really they are. Because, they’re kind of deluded or have deceived themselves that they have anger.
Lastly, Neptune can bring a sense of longing to whatever it touches. And, sometimes with Mars-Neptune people, you can find this longing for the person to be able to be more direct, have more Yang energy, and there can be this feeling of missing that part of their being.
Adrian: What happens when Venus enters the scene?
Jessica: (laughs) Venus, Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love and Beauty, the counterpart to Mars, Yin and Yang coming together at what seems to be at the substrate of all existence: this dynamic interplay between Yin and Yang. Venus is what we love. It’s what we value, what we find attractive and beautiful. So, Mars-Venus can be a love of the masculine. It can be a love of the warrior, a love of fire, a love of aggression in relationship. Venus relates to our romantic relationships but also our friendships and is also the Artist. It’s how it channels Eros and Beauty, so, when we get Mars and Venus together, you see it classically in the dancer, the martial artist. You see it in the musician, where Mars energy becomes very activated in service of the beautiful, in service of creativity, in service of love.
But you can also see it in the quarreling lovers, the lovers who are fighting. Or, you can see it in what Rick calls the kiss, the moment of passionate love being enacted. So, you see it a lot in social situations, where Mars and Venus come together and often is the aspect that is great for having parties, dancing or making love.
Adrian: Is this the Don Juan archetype?
Jessica: Yeah, it definitely can be the passionate lover or where the Mars masculine energy is constantly on this quest or mission for the beautiful feminine woman.
Adrian: Mars with the Moon?
Jessica: Moon brings in a certain vulnerability and tenderness. The Moon is the relational matrix of our being. It represents our first relationship with our mother and then becomes the rest of our family, our father, our siblings. So, Moon shows our home life, but it also shows our attachment style. It shows how we experience connection or disconnection with other people. The Moon is how we nourish ourselves, how we nurture ourselves and how we nurture others, so therefore how we experience a sense of belonging or not. Rick often talks about how the Moon is who we are before we are the Sun. It’s who we are before we have a sense of self and identity. So, in that, it contains all of our early childhood experiences, which we tend not to remember with much clarity. And, it shows our family system, and therefore it also shows our emotional life. That’s one of the core parts of our psyche, the Sun and the Moon, the two core aspects of the chart.
When you bring Mars in there, it does a lot of things. One, it can bring a kind of fiery emotional life, where one can more easily move into a state of reaction instead of response, where when one’s needs or boundaries are not being met. There can be this flaring up of a more aggressive energy, particularly the Moon relating to our primal needs. If you’re hungry, tired, stressed out for not getting enough love and you have Moon-Mars, there’s a tendency to not only become angry and aggressive but to fight. This fighting can either be stone walling, where the person emotionally shuts down and doesn’t let you in, in a very kind a stubborn way, or it can be an aggressive attacking, and blaming, and shaming. Because the other person, the person who has Moon-Mars is feeling bad, and their needs aren’t being met, and then they go on the attack as a way of self-protection.
Moon-Mars is also the fierce mother. It’s the strong mother archetype, the mama bear, the protector, the maternal protection. It also tends to show up a lot in people who are very physically athletic. The Moon is the body and Mars is athleticism. So, you see it a lot in people who love sports and just need lots of physical exertion or who love to sweat a lot. There’s also a certain need in one’s attachment for there to be a certain play of aggression. We tend to think of aggression more in a negative valence, but play fighting, wrestling, becoming more kind of primal animals, is actually a really positive expression, for a Moon-Mars person, when it’s done in a safe space. Because the way that they express themselves, is actually in pretty nonverbal ways, tends to be more somatic, more physical, to really let out the energy.
Adrian: The play of the lion cubs…
Jessica: Exactly, yeah exactly. It’s a beautiful image to carry with the Moon-Mars.
Adrian: And Mars with the Sun?
Jessica: Yes, moving into the other core aspect of our psyche, our identity and sense of self, the Sun is really interesting for me. I mean, the Sun is both the vessel or the medium through which the other planetary archetype comes through, but it also is a function of trying to illuminate, to bring to the conscious light of day whatever it touches.
So, with Sun-Mars there often can be a strong identification with the Warrior Archetype, with strength and courage, where one’s personality is defined by strength. You look at the people who are muscular and physically strong. You look at the people who are strong, and have a strong presence; they have the courage to speak up or to speak out, when no one else does. Or, the person who takes action, who isn’t afraid to put themselves out there… That’s the Sun-Mars person: it’s the athlete, the warrior, the strength and the courage as a central part of one’s identity and one’s persona.
But the Sun also represents our individuation process, the process by which we mature and grow and differentiate. So, in Sun-Mars people there can be a tendency in their process of individuation to experience a lot of personal conflict in their lives and in their relationships as a way of understanding the impact of their actions with other people. The Sun-Mars person can tend to get into conflict, debates and arguments, but I think what’s happening there, is that the person is learning how to wield that fire and make it more conscious, make it more part of an awareness and how they want to use their agency and free will to express the Archetype of the Warrior.
Adrian: This is the archetype of the cowboy, of the macho…
Jessica: It can be. It can definitely be the macho, the really aggressive man who is constantly trying to dominate, like the Alpha Male. They try to dominate other men, the leader of the pack or dominate other women. As a woman, a man who has Sun-Mars, who hasn’t become conscious of it, I find very annoying, I’m like ugh, God, like, great! I have to protect myself from this person hitting on me or whatever. Instead, it could come through, as such a nobility of plays, where the person feels really embodied and super grounded. There’s a sexual attraction to that, as a woman, when I see a man self-possessed, and that can really be the beauty of Sun-Mars.
Adrian: We still have to address Mars-Mercury and Mars-Jupiter.
Jessica: Yeah, Mars-Mercury, more than any other aspect, Rick talks about this as relating to the debater. You see it a lot in people who love to debate, but also, like in moments when a debate is happening. A lot of famous debates have Mercury-Mars in the world transit, while they take place. It’s definitely where the mind comes in and the forms of communication take on a Martian tone. So, it can be the assertive person, the person who is very direct in their communication, when you meet someone and they’re just not afraid to say whatever it is that they’re thinking; that’s Mercury-Mars. Or, when the person can sometimes have a sharp tongue, and their words cut you; that’s also Mercury-Mars. Often Mercury-Mars people don’t realize how sharp their tongue is, so it’s not intentional. It’s just that what they say can come across as more blunt or more abrasive.
Mercury-Mars is also someone whose mind is very stimulated. Mars will activate the mental processes, maybe someone who’s very passionate about learning, passionate about languages or passionate about learning new languages. So, where the mind becomes very, very active and it’s almost like the athleticism happening in the realm of mind, in the intellect versus the physical body with the Moon, you see it with people who have very sharp minds. Rick Tarnas has Mercury-Mars, so, yeah, it’s where that warrior energy is happening more in the realm of ideas and of thinking and communication than anything else.
And then Jupiter… Mars-Jupiter. I have this aspect in my chart. Jupiter tends to magnify whatever it touches, to expand it. So, there’s often this kind of big masculine energy. I talk fast. There’s a lot of energy that moves through me, a force that comes through me. It’s where that Mars energy is very celebrated. It’s honored; it’s kind of elevated in my being. I tend to be a very direct person, but also there’s a kind of joviality. So, a lot of times there’s this quality, of like, positive aggression, a certain laughter in the moments of asserting oneself, a joviality to it. There’s a magnetism to the Mars energy, but you also see it in people who are there to conquest. Jupiter is about growing and incorporating larger wholes, so there can be this really strong pull towards activating oneself around constantly expanding one’s horizons, whether that’s philosophically, metaphysically, cosmologically. It’s like you can just go forever and ever and get bigger and bigger and bigger, and that there’s so much energy and drive to climb to the top of the mountain and to receive the word, the good word. There’s the call to challenge oneself, to constantly be growing intellectually, spiritually, emotionally.

But Jupiter has a specific relationship to philosophy, and you can often see Mars-Jupiter in philosophical warriors or warriors on behalf of the higher principles in life. It can be a certain kind of tone of justice or the justice which more relates to Jupiter-Saturn. But, there can be this activation around a sense of morality and ethics that Jupiter also carries. The shadow side of Mars-Jupiter is a certain bravado that can sometimes be dominating. I’m aware in this interview that I’m talking a lot and, I feel sensitive to whether am I supposed to ask you questions. Should you be speaking more? You’re obviously an extremely intelligent astrologer… So there’s this quality of the Jupiter-Mars as a kind of bigger than life masculine energy.
Adrian: Speak freely; I love it! Do you have some suggestions regarding how to operate with an archetypal complex by transit?
Jessica: (laughs) Sure, I’m just going to… one second. Any combination?
Adrian: I would choose Pluto, because it seems to be one of the most difficult transits.
Jessica: Yeah, so like, looking out Pluto moving into a transit and touching any part of your chart, how to work with that?
Adrian: Yes, that’s what I mean!
Jessica: Yeah. I have the utmost respect for Pluto. It is an archetype that I find to be the core process of the Universe. So, the death-rebirth process seems to be the underlying patterning of the entire Cosmos, it seems to be the thing that allows life to exist, and what allows the evolutionary drive to create new life. That is an extremely primordial, primal, elemental, intense and volcanic experience. I mean, we’re talking about death and birth, which is a common phrase, a death-rebirth process, the process of transformation.
Slow that down for a moment and really think about that. What does it mean to die? What does it mean to completely be annihilated? What does it mean to actually experience decay and degeneration to the point where everything that you have known can be taken away from you? And then at the same moment, intertwined into all of that, an unimaginable complexity and diversity of life emerges from the regeneration and rebirth of the form that was just transfigured through the purifying fires of life, whether that’s emotionally, a relationship you’re in, a volcano itself exploding and erupting and destroying all life surrounding it, plants, animals, people’s homes… And then, later, you start to see new life emerging from the volcanic ashes after the fire cools, after the lava cools and the most lush landscape, the most tropical jungle landscapes come out of it; new species are born out of those ashes…Really sit with that, and think, wow, that’s the way the Cosmos works!
That’s the way that Kali, as the Great Mother of Destroyer and Creator comes through, and that’s what allows us to be here. I mean, it is because of the mass extinction 65 million years ago, all of the dinosaurs, through what we think is the asteroid coming and hitting Earth and creating so much dust in the atmosphere that nothing higher than three feet survived. And we think that the ancestors of human beings is the shoe-like creature that walked around the grounds scavenging for food. Then primates evolved and then humans evolved from these shoe-like creatures that could have only grown to a larger size, because the large dinosaurs died and came to an end. An unimaginable diversity of life, was born out of that mass extinction; that’s Pluto: its massive, titanic, it’s mass extinction, it’s death.
And then, millions of years later enters the human being. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for that mass extinction. And we can say that on a personal individual level about our lives, that every time we go through a death, it is a process of purification. It’s painful, terrifying, and it brings me to my fucking knees, every single time. It should scare us, and we should admit that we’re scared. Because in that process we’re humbled to feel the depths of life in our being, and that’s what allows life to come in and lift us up to new heights and new places that we couldn’t have gone to, if we didn’t go through the process of death and dying.
The level of care that Pluto brings with it is the level of reverence that I believe we all need for life, for Earth, for our souls, all of it. And yet the most beautiful thing is there’s a continuity to all of that. There is something that does not die, even in the most massive extinction. There’s something in consciousness itself that does not die, and that’s the rebirth and the amazingness, that when we actually go through death and die, we always come out the other side. Again and again, I incarnate and wake up in the middle of a story. I have no idea where it came from, where I’m going, and I spend my life waking up to myself and rediscovering who I am, where I am, what’s going on here. And yet there seems to be a continuity to my being. I feel me, every single time. I wake up in the middle of a story and I don’t know how I got there. Yet there’s something wholly familiar that I’ve always been the same, and yet I’m evolving: that’s Pluto and that’s the beauty of it.
When we get transits of Pluto, it demands of us to make an offering. I believe that offering is an offering on our good days of trust. To say okay, I will die, I will let go, I will shed what is no longer serving me. I will go through the destruction, through the terror. I will let that purify me and in that process, with that trust is a certain perfection that comes out. There’s a deep core truth that comes out, and that is so incredibly empowering and beautiful that it makes me want to keep showing up to be a human being. There’s something about going through that death-rebirth process that actually makes you want to keep showing up for life. Every single time I die and I wake up on the other side, I am so incredibly grateful for who I had become, and the experience that I had that allowed me to go through that death rebirth. My life is so much more incredibly beautiful than it was before. I know that this doesn’t happen every lifetime. I know that we can go lifetimes without getting that moment of redemption. But I know, that when we stay with it, it comes. Every single time it comes, at least for me, I wake up and I go wow, that was worth it.
That’s what Pluto transits are about. Really it’s about us stepping into our power and our authenticity. And power is simply our ability to affect change on whatever it is that we’re doing. That is an amazing gift that we’ve been bestowed as human beings. And I think that the pain and suffering that comes with Pluto transits, the best way to honor Pluto transits, is to feel it: feel how it hurts, feel how it hurts to die, honor the death process, grieve it, mourn it, feel it, express it, channel it, cry it out.
I mean, before I got on this interview with you, Adrian, I was sobbing and my partner was holding me, as like I was just convulsingly crying. I have Pluto conjunct my Sun-Mercury right now. I am going through such a deep death on so many levels in my being, and I am so scared most of the time, and then it releases. Then I’m here and I’m able to talk with you and bring the wisdom from that experience into my life. That’s what Pluto gives us. It gives us wisdom, and it gives us something that can never be taken from us, no matter how many times we die, no matter how many times we get hurt. There’s something that we’re giving, by going into the Underworld, being shamanicly dismembered, reclaiming forgotten parts of ourselves, coming back up to the above world. Every time we do that, the Underworld gives us a power, and that power is felt as a Divine Grace in the above world, and that is awesome.
Adrian: Thank you for describing difficult experiences like these in such beautiful words.
Jessica: (laughs) Thank you for asking, listening and holding the space for me to do that.
Adrian: And so by becoming conscious of what is unconscious we may transform into observers instead of unconscious puppets of these primordial forces. What is the so called participatory vision?
Jessica: (laughs) You ask all the good questions. (laughs). Yes. I think one of the most amazing things about Astrology is that it allows us to track ourselves in the enfoldment of our lives through our personal transits, that we can actually, when we really study our chart and our transits, see a teleological unfolding of our psyche through time. We can actually track our unconscious; we can actually see our unconscious playing out and in that process becoming conscious of it.

Astrology is one of the fastest tracks along with psychology I think, the two combined together. You can’t have one without the other. It’s the fastest track into self-discovery and awareness, being able to become conscious of what was unconscious. In psychotherapy, I mean both psychotherapy and depth psychotherapy, talk psychotherapy and psychedelic psychotherapy, where you’re entering into expanded or not ordinary states of consciousness big time, being able to see things in non-linear ways, is absolutely incredible to do. And so, for me, the Holy Trinity brings together Astrology, psychology and expanded states of awareness. And when you do those three things together, it allows you to more fully participate in your life and to become conscious of what is unconscious, so that you’re not operating from such a place of being a puppet, as you say. I think that, part of my own eagerness in life, I thought that one day, maybe I would get to a place where that would not be happening any more. Like, if I can just become conscious of what’s unconscious, I can just do enough inner work, then I’ll be okay. It’s like no; it turns out that it’s death all the way up and down. This is why I love the work of Chris Bache in Dark Night, Early Dawn. He’s like: no, it’s death all the way up and down. There’s never a point in Consciousness that you get to, where you stop dying. Because the Universe itself is constantly growing and evolving into deeper, more beautiful luminescent states; that is always going to be the process by which Consciousness is.
So, participation for me is the utter joy of becoming more alive, more embodied. And what does that give you? It gives you more colors to paint with. It gives you more flexibility to dance. It allows you to actually have more imagination, more vision, more sight, more instinct, more intuition. You’re given more of all the things we all already have. Except, when you get more of them, then more can come through, and when more can come true, it becomes exciting. You don’t know what could happen next, and you watch yourself grow.
I think that participation is looking at your chart, understanding the gifts and the challenges, the light and the shadow of all the different combinations you’re born with. And as honestly as possible, look at yourself and your life and see how you’ve been expressing the great side of it, and the hard side of it, and then ask yourself, what do I want from life? Giving what I know, what is the highest potential expression of these energies, and what can I begin to do in a really practical daily way, to move myself into doing that, if that’s what you want. It’s like, Astrology hopes us become conscious of our unconscious, because we can, with a certain distance, look at our chart, and no matter what, we know what the shadow side of Moon-Pluto is, we know it. So if you have Moon-Pluto or you’re going through a Pluto-Moon transit, you know what the shadow is. It’s not personal and has nothing to do with you. These archetypes were in this dance long before human beings ever existed. We’re waking up in the middle of their story, and it is our active service to them, out of an act of love, to help them work out their relationship through us. We get to decide how it is we want those relationships to come through, and that involves the archetypes themselves.

So, participation is about a co-evolutionary process, where you ethically and morally take seriously the responsibility that one has by having self-reflexive consciousness, being a co-creator. That you are actually shaping morphic fields from the most intimate domains of life to the most collective domains of life. That this actually shapes who the human being is, and how we show up in history. Therefore it shapes the future, and I think that, that’s one of the main things Astrology gives us when we really take it all the way through. It’s a moral imperative, an ethical imperative to take responsibility for ourselves, for our lives and for our chart, no matter what our circumstances are.
One example again is, my parents divorced when I was four years old. I saw my father ten days a year in the summertime, when I was on a break from school; I love my father more than anything. I have Venus-Saturn, the love of the father and also the heartbreak, the utter heartbreak of the abandonment of me as a little girl. Not getting to have that shared love physically, and on some level, I could be a victim of that. I have spent my whole life pissed off that I didn’t get to have something that is so precious to all of us, but particularly, to little girls who have Venus-Saturn.
Or I can accept on a soul level that I chose these parents. I chose this chart, and there’s an intelligence, a reason why my psyche, my soul needed to experience that this lifetime. Then my father becomes one of my greatest teachers and allies, because he took on a very difficult task of karmicly contracting with me, to not show up. Does that mean that I never got angry? No, I had been angry for most of my life. I spent so many hours crying about it in and out of therapy. But after a certain point, you stay with the wound long enough, and something happens. Something miraculous happens and you come in and this love has opened up in my heart. That is so incredible, that it makes the journey of not having him worth it. Now do I not wish, do I not hope that next lifetime I can have a dad? Of course, but the best thing I can do now is to choose a partner for myself, that will be able to be the father to my children, that the little girl in me didn’t get to have. In order to do that the amount of self-healing I have to do, the self-love that I have to go through, so that I can actually be in a healthy relationship with someone who can show up as a man of integrity and have respect for my daughter, is the path of the Venus-Saturn. This is the path of the abandoned little girl and, blessed be, that it happened. I’ll be getting married next year, and my partner and I are going to have a family. Every single day I look at him, he is exactly the man I want to be with and exactly the man that little Jessica always needed. It’s like, okay, that’s a way to participate, that’s a way to show up, that’s a way to take what’s going on here seriously.
Adrian: Thank you for sharing these touching personal details.
Jessica: You’re welcome!
Adrian: Since you’re a psychologist and astrologer, I want you to comment on Rick Tarnas’s assertion that 100 years from now, psychologists of the future will look at their colleagues who practice now without using Astrology just like nowadays astronomers look at their colleagues from Middle Age who worked without telescope or just like contemporary biologists who look at the researchers from the past who worked without a microscope.
Jessica: (laughs) Rick always has that perfect way of making those analogies… Yeah, I think he’s right. I think that like all things that need to come into their own, there’s a differentiation process, right? So, Rick talks a lot about this in both The Passion of the Western Mind and Cosmos and Psyche, that a big part of disenchantment actually has to do with the re-enchantment of the Cosmos. And that the human being had to essentially reject a meaningful and creative intelligence in order to develop the ego and to develop the “I”, and to develop self-reflexive consciousness, and to develop the rational mind. That this is necessary for the returning, the coming back into a deeper relationship with the Anima Mundi.
I think the same is true for everything that goes to processes of differentiation. I think Psychology and Astrology had to separate themselves, so that psychology could develop more, and what psychology is doing now, is absolutely incredible, I mean, our awareness that’s growing from things to emotional intelligence, mindfulness, neuro-diversity, understanding more about the brain.
Even deeper than that, understanding more how to be and show up in a relationship that is therapeutically healing, is something that every astrologer needs to learn from. They need each other equally: Astrology needs Psychology in order to be therapeutically applied, whether that’s in a reading or in horoscopes or just a deeper psychological awareness around what is happening inside of the human being. There are a lot of things Astrology doesn’t explain in of itself, and emotional intelligence, and the irrational is a big part of that. There is something very intellectual about Astrology, in that it’s a map and a way of explaining things. That is helpful to a point, but Astrology in of itself can bring just a certain amount of healing, there’s a point where it stops; it’s a point where the words, the ideas, the concepts don’t work anymore. And what needs to come through is emotional contact through safety, and that’s where I think, real lasting healing happens, more on an energetic psychic level.
Now, that being said, psychology is absolutely operating in an unnecessary dark room. It absolutely needs Astrology, for sure. And I look at my colleagues, and there’s nothing more than I want to do, except to say, hey, let me teach you how to do this. This will really help speed up the process, the messy process in understanding the client. It is a certain level of trust that has to be built over time with the client, that can only come from direct human contact. But Astrology can help speed up the therapist’s understanding of what is in the room. That can help the therapist develop deeper trust and understanding with the client, even if they don’t use the Astrology specifically, directly with the client. It still can inform the work in a way that, I think, causes unnecessary work and suffering between the therapist and the patient.
Adrian: That’s exactly my opinion! I just wonder how much time will pass until we’ll see it happening. Would you like to move on to some technical details? Archetypal Astrology sees the world through three forms of correspondence: natal, world transits and the personal transits. Can you elaborate on this subject?
Jessica: Sure. So, this comes out of the lectures and writings of Rick Tarnas. He talks about the three forms of correspondence, and the word correspondence comes from the dictum as above, so below that every astrologer has heard. Well, Rick took that and said, yes, the three forms of correspondence for as above, so below is the birth chart, the world transits and then the world transits being put with the birth chart giving us our personal transits. These, and also synastry, putting two charts together, are the areas that Rick has focused on.
Essentially, each form of correspondence has its own orbs and influence that are different from one another. And each form of correspondence is a different pathway into that specific relation that we’re looking at. So the birth chart is the relationship of that individual person with himself, their family, their environment, their work. The world transits, of course, are us understanding the Anima Mundi and the collective psyche or Zeitgeist, that we are all in together. Then the personal transits shows us the activation or catalysts of our psyche, of our life through time, the enfoldment of that through time. So, those are the three forms of correspondence, but I would add into that, sinastry between any two people and then also Rick would include progressions.
Adrian: Speaking about forms of correspondence… I have just checked and noticed that today there’s a Sun-Mercury conjunction trining Neptune, the same archetypal complexes that you have in your birth chart. And also a Saturn-Venus conjunction, that you also have.
Jessica: Oh, yeah… mhm, totally… aw, that’s lovely. I was kind of surprised: oh my God, I’m talking a lot. Where is this comes from?
Adrian: How do you do a reading? Do you have any favorite techniques?
Jessica: The way I go about a reading has really changed over the last nine years. Currently, what I do is I have the person answer four questions for me and give me their birth data, tell me what it is they want from the reading, what themes they want to focus on. And then I ask them to list significant dates and events in their lives, so I can track the archetypal patterning from the past and understand how we arrived at this present moment. The reason why I do that is, so much can come through in a reading. It’s really important for me that the reading is very applicable to the person with what they’re going through right now, in this moment. I honor the intelligence of the specific day that person and I come together to do the reading, and of course, I am looking at the transits for that day, both world transits and their personal transits, I also look at my sinastry with them to understand what the deeper intelligence of this person seeking me out is. I mean, there are millions of astrologers. Why are they coming to me? There’s something that I can potentially offer them, and sometimes I get clues about that from looking at the sinastry before we meet.
Also, what are they here to teach me, you know? They’re coming into also to teach me something about my life, and I think the best readings are when both people leave feeling like a better person. That often happens for me with clients who are willing to share themselves with me and to really be open, truthful and honest about what they’re really going through, what they’re really struggling with, what their true dreams are. And I find that I combine a highly intuitive approach (I’m Sun-Mercury-Neptune and I’m Prices rising, so very intuitive) with a lot of rigor from my years of study and practice and training as an astrologer and therapist. That’s more my Sun-Mercury-Neptune in Capricorn and also my Saturn at the Midheaven, square Jupiter. So it’s a strong combination of what Rick often refers to as rigor and imagination or rigor and intuition.
So, the main technique I use is a participatory meeting in the middle of wherever that person is at in their life. The more they’re able to be open with me, the more I am able to be open with them. And the more I’m able to channel has a lot to do with how open and transparent that person can be with me, and that’s when the magic just absolutely flies. Of course, not every clients is like that. Some people are much more closed down for their own psychological reasons, or they just don’t trust me yet, which is fine. I get that, and I have to work a little harder in those sessions and kind of prove myself, and you know kind of say things about them that get them to trust me. And that’s also, a different part of me that’s more analytical and kind of wants to break things down, but essentially, for me, the technique is just meeting the person where they are at. Dane Rudhyar talks about this the most in Astrology of Transformation. He’s one of my all-time favorite astrologers; Rick and Rudhyar are my heroes astrologically. Dane Rudhyar really talks about learning to develop the capacity to understand where the client is at, before you read the chart. Because you can give readings that are damaging, when you’re speaking above the level that the person is at. If I go in for a straight transpersonal level and that person is really at a more personal level, that’s not going to help them. So I have less of a formula of what I’m doing than deep listening to that person’s unconscious, because their unconscious is telling me exactly what it is they need from me, and if I’m listening and I humble myself, I can hopefully give that to them.
Adrian: On the client side, are there any rules to be followed in order to have a good astrological reading?
Jessica: For me it’s to take my questionnaire seriously, fill out the answers, give it time. In a way the reading begins the moment the person books it with me. It’s a ceremonial ritualistic space, and when you have to go into your biography, it should be psychoactive. It should activate you and get you to start thinking about things so you fill out the form. Then you just have respect for the process. You show up on time, meet me and then you answer my questions. I say, please, tell me what’s going on for you in your life right now. Of course, I set the space and then listen to them and when they’re done speaking I thank them and then describe to them everything I see. When they ask me questions, and when they give me feedback, the chart opens up more and more, ever deeper layers of opening, of revelation, by that person continuing to participate with me, through dialogue and sharing how what I’m saying is or is not resonating. Questions specifically on what they want me to hone in on, because I can read the chart for a billion years, but I want to read the chart for that moment, for that person, instead of just trying to impress myself that I know what it is that I am doing. Who cares anymore, you know?
Adrian: Can you share a success story? Do you feel like you experienced any failures?
Jessica: Yeah. Let’s start first with the failure. One time, the only time in my astrological practice that I actually refunded a person their money after we did the session. And I, yeah, like I said, I’ve been doing this for nine years, and I’ve literally done that one time. What happened, was the person came in and wanted something from me I couldn’t give them. But I didn’t catch it, because I just, I don’t know, I just, you can’t catch everything all the time. I was also younger then, less experienced, but I think, I don’t know if there was any way that I could have known what was going to happen… And this gentleman came into the session and essentially he wanted me in a kind of robotic, mechanistic and fortune teller way, tell him exactly not only who he was, which I can do to an extent. He wanted me to essentially tell him what he wanted to hear, he didn’t want to hear what I had to say. He didn’t want to hear what I was seeing. That wasn’t why he came. He came to me for a psychological need, for me to essentially tell him yes, everyone in your life and what they’ve done to you is fucked up and you deserve to be angry and pissed off. The reason why your life sucks, is because of everybody else. So he was very blaming, removing any responsibility from his part. Then on top of all that, he wanted me to tell him exactly when and how things were going to get better, when his book was going to get published, when he was going to make that money, when his relationship was going to get better. I said, well, I can’t tell you those things, but we can talk about, process together and shed some light on why this is happening to you. We can discover together why you’re in this situation, and then I imagine the answers will come for you. He didn’t like that and left the session really disappointed and angry and so did I. I just, didn’t feel right about it. I offered him his money back. It’s is almost like I didn’t want to enter into that level of energetic exchange with him and take money for that.
Now, if that begins to happen in a session, I catch it in the first five minutes. I don’t enter into a place with people like that. Actually, the other day it was the only time in my profession as an astrologer, that I refunded someone their money before the reading happened. So, I’ve refunded people their money twice, once after long before, and this time before the session, I caught it and the guy didn’t want to fill out my form. He told me, quote “I wish you could just accept what’s given to you and go with it“. And I said, “Well, then I’m not the right astrologer for you, and I wish you the best in finding that person. Here’s your money back“.
Well, I guess the second was a moment of success for me. I caught it before it happened, but I think when people demand something of me that I’m not giving, I’m past the point now where I’m willing to play that game. I am blessed to be in a situation where my practice is flourishing, that I can have a choice on who I work with and who I don’t. Whereas in the beginning of my practice I was so poor, so broke, that I had to take every client. I think in a way that’s good, because it teaches you a lot about how to do this work and what your boundaries are. I’m at the point now where, essentially when we go into a session, I’m channeling and I’m not going to open my channel for just anyone anymore. And the way that we enter into that contract together is, if you respect my boundaries and follow my rules, then I will give myself to you for that moment, for that amount of time, for that amount of money. So, that’s a little bit more on the practical side, but that’s the first thing that came to mind about a story of failure.
Adrian: And the success story?
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, the success story. Oh, actually I did this reading for a woman last summer. She was in a really, really difficult place in her life personally and professionally. Essentially what was happening was, she was in such toxic, oppressive work environment, that it was killing her. Literally, she was physically sick, fatigued, really depressed and just totally not taking care of herself. The demands at her job and the power structures that were in play at her work, were so tyrannical. She had a family, was married, had kids and was really starting to impact her home life. If I remember her birth chart correctly, she had Moon-Mercury with Saturn-Pluto, and came from a lineage of really powerful men, really powerful patriarchs; she had inherited a part of the family business, generations back. There’s a sense of duty there, to the family, to the lineage and to the name. When we got done with our session, going really deep into the Moon-Mercury-Saturn-Pluto, she got off the phone and decided to get herself help by extricating herself out of her job. She let go of the family business and decided to turn all of her life energy into creating new forms of education in public and private school systems, actually creating curriculum and doing things that her true self, her true heart had always wanted to do; she had kind of done this on the side, as projects. But that reading, for some reason, gave her more permission to be herself. She got herself out of her really bad work situation and redirected herself into something that now has given her life and her family and her children such meaning and such healing. She attributes the reading as the turning moment for her. This woman was in therapy. So, she was getting nearing, but I think that turning moment happened because it was someone she didn’t know, removed from her life, could use a tool to reflect back to herself, her deepest and true self from a cosmic perspective. It gave her the strength and the power to do what I think, she already knew she needed to do, but was too scared to do, to give herself permission to do, and it changed the course of her life.

Not all readings can be like that, but I think all readings, good readings, where there’s real connection between the two people, can have that quality to it. And I think a reading is meant to empower the person to more fully live in their true life and what’s going to bring them joy and contentment. And what’s going to allow them to take responsibility for the situations that they’re in and face their challenges as well as their shadow in service of empowerment.
Adrian: What qualities make a good astrologer?
Jessica: I think it depends on what type of astrologer. Rick is a mundane astrologer and studies history. Part of what makes him an amazing, incredible astrologer, is his level of rigor, his level of attention to details and something that he describes as not placing the chart onto the phenomena, but letting the phenomena, the events reveal themselves. And then see how they correlate in with the chart, allowing the data to inform what it is that we know about Astrology.
We often say: Astrology tells us about the person, the person also tells us about Astrology. It goes both ways, and I think Rick really instilled this in me. It’s really important to be rigorous. This means it’s important to know what you’re doing, to stay close to the chart, to really describe what it is you’re seeing versus what you think you should be seeing, who you think that person should be, projecting onto them your fears and wishes, having value judgments about who they are, what they’re doing with their lives. It’s so important to honor this amazing gift that we’ve been given to see Astrology an act of Grace, to be rigorous about it. It’s so important to stay grounded, to stay ethical.
It’s so easy as we know, in these forms of divination to predict, to take on a sort of high priest or priestess energy, to use the power in bad ways, to tell people who they are and what they should do. No, I don’t think an astrologer ever tells someone what to do, no matter what you think your opinion is. I think it’s our role to present what we see in the most balanced way as possible and to let the person themselves decide and figure it out. That can happen through dialogue with us. But to say to someone, “oh, you should get divorced, oh, you should have kids“… Whenever we say should, we know that we’re stepping out of the bounds of ethical counseling. Or, even if you’re not counseling, an ethical form of being with someone, you’re taking away the other person’s freewill. I think it’s really important for us to stay very grounded in ourselves, which can only happen through doing our own inner work.
I think a really good astrologer does their inner work. They are themselves, not only constantly studying and journaling their own transits, they’re in therapy. They’re doing different healing modalities constantly. If you’re holding space for anyone else, someone needs to be holding space for you; that’s the rule of the game. So, no matter how advanced you become, if someone is not holding space for you, then you’re going to get out of balance. So think it’s a combination of rigor, inner work, and I also think it’s really important to continue learning.
I think that I’m at the point now where I learn less from reading books, then I do from my clients. I have a notepad now, when I’m in session, and the client says something about their life; I learn about a new way a combination can come through, and I write it down and allow myself to constantly be learning, from both my clients and my students, and let them teach and show me. So, I think it’s a process of consciously staying in a posture of deep listening and humility; it’s about really being honest with ourselves. Sometimes we can hide behind the Astrology to feel powerful, to feel useful, to feel knowledgeable, to feel helpful. There’s not necessarily anything wrong with that, but we need to be really mindful why is it we’re looking at someone’s chart with them. What is the deeper underlying intention of the work that we’re doing at any moment? Staying really clear about that and revisiting our intentions constantly, because we all get inflated. Astrology, like all forms of divination and psychology, tends to make the ego inflated. We all get inflated, because we’ve been given a tremendous amount of awareness. This gives us a lot of power, and I think sometimes it creates a situation where we bypass our own suffering and our own pain; we’re so busy constantly helping other people. I think that it’s about tending to our own problems and our own suffering as much as it is about showing up and helping others do that.
Adrian: What is the most important advice you have for someone interested in learning Astrology?
Jessica: Take it slow. Follow your heart, take it slow; it’s not going anywhere. Learn the basics. Become masterful in the basics before you try to figure out what this house and that sign and this rulership, this ancient rulership and this and that and the asteroids…
This is a kind of addiction that happens, fill it, fill it. Woah! Create that strong foundation for your soul, like learning any new language, familiarize yourself with the alphabet. Learn how to count. Start forming sentences. Start speaking with others to become fluent. But if you go jump right in to wanting to know the whole system all once, you’re going to lose the ability to speak in a way that’s actually going to change someone, that’s actually going to help somebody understand themselves better. But you’re going to get so caught up in all the different systems and methods. It’s so much simpler than that, it doesn’t need to be so complex. We don’t need to add epicycle, onto epicycle, onto epicycle of Astrology, to figure out the mathematics of the movement of the planets. It’s more simple than that. The Sun is at the center, and the planets evolve around it. If you’re adding epicycle, onto epicycle of your practice, my suggestion would be to go back to the basics and see that it’s already there in the fundamentals; it’s already there in the planets. The planets themselves have it from the combinations they make.

If you’re focused on signs, become masterful in the signs, become masterful in the houses. Really allow yourself to stay with it. And finally, the first chart and the longest chart that I think anyone needs to be with is their own. I studied my chart every single day for the first six months. I mean, I was studying all day every day for six months before I even looked at anybody else’s chart. I needed to understand, not only who I was, and was so excited and elated to do so, but I needed to understand why I see the world, why I see the archetypes the way I do, because our psychology and our philosophy is seen in our chart. If I don’t understand that my Jupiter square Saturn tends to give me a more positive valence on the Saturn archetype and then I go to look at someone who is born a Saturn-Pluto: they don’t have that experience, and then I try to impose my Jupiter-Saturn onto their Saturn-Pluto, I am missing the mark.
So, we have to know ourselves so that we can become fluent in beginning to speak this language with a self-awareness. Then we can actually see the person for where they’re at and meet them where they’re at.
Adrian: Do you have any favorite aspect in your chart?
Jessica: (laughs) Ah yeah, I really love my Moon trine Uranus. I have Moon in Aries trine Uranus in Sagittarius at the Midheaven. I have always loved that part of me. It’s a really playful, enthusiastic part. It’s also me as a woman astrologer who is very focused on, not only the relational aspect of Astrology, counseling Astrology, but embodying Astrology. This is a name of a course that I do, that’s about how do we actually bring this more into our lives beyond just the intellectual realm, into our bodies, into our emotions, into our relationships. I mean that’s a lot of my Moon trine Uranus. And also I love playing. This has been a more serious conversation. It has clearly marked my Capricorn energy, but if we hang out, you would see, that I laugh a lot. I am really playful and trickstery, I am constantly joking, so, I love that lighter part of me.
Adrian: What would you change from your chart if you could? How?
Jessica: Yeah, I firmly believe that it’s most important to fall in love with our chart. I wouldn’t change a single part of my chart at all. I think that when we start to get into places where we think about how could I change this part of my chart, how could I change a part of my life, we are missing the point of the profound intelligence and love that is in having that aspect. And I believe that the deepest part of me chose this chart. And, I am going to respect that and not desire or ask to change it in anyway.
Adrian: What was the most unusual question a client asked you in a reading?
Jessica: (long pause) When is my husband going to start loving me? There are certain moments where my heart goes out for that person. I feel this tenderness and at the same time I’m like wow, I don’t know if I could… and obviously I can’t answer that. But in that moment, I’m thinking, is there some other way I can help you? Like, see what just happened there. Yeah, can’t think of any other ones right now. Sometimes I get asked a question I’m just feeling like, whoa, I don’t even know what to say. And sometimes I will say that, I don’t know what to say right now. I see this or I see that. That’s one example that comes to mind.
Adrian: If you had the chance for a one-hour meeting with a famous astrologer of all time, who would you choose and what would you ask him?
Jessica: I would choose Dane Rudhyar. I would want to ask him: what was it that you were doing to open yourself up to such channels of such insight? I feel such a resonance with his work. I want to know, is there anything that I can do to help myself open up at the level that he was open?
Adrian: If you were offered the chance to spend some time with an archetype, which one would you choose and what would you ask for?
Jessica: I would actually choose to experience that which is beyond the archetypal. I would ask to experience what Chris Bache calls the diamond luminosity, that light that is so radiant and so beautiful and is the source of where archetypes in the manifest world come from.
Adrian: If you met the golden fish from fairy tales, the one who is able to fulfill three wishes, what would you ask him?
Jessica: Please let me, please help me learn how to surrender more and more. Please let me learn how to die with more grace. Please let me always know love for myself and those around me.
Adrian: This seems like the perfect closure for our interview.
Jessica: Thank you so much Adrian. It has been such a fun time being with you. I love your questions and just appreciate you asking me to be here.
Adrian: Thank you for this great interview!
Jessica: Oh, you’re so welcome. I’m sending all my love from California to Romania. Yeah, I really love what you’re doing and can feel your presence and your integrity and curiosity. That really lights up my heart.

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